| 1. | (26 posts) | The Fate of "Spirited Away" in the US |
| 2. | (6 posts) | Nostalgia as a Barrier to Enjoyment of a Film |
| 3. | (14 posts) | NY Times on Anime |
We looked at 131 posts by 53 different contributors.
Far fewer gender theory posts, but this behavior does not constitute "cute".
Mary Neno noted a New York Post artice that indicated that DreamWorks and Disney are bidding up the price of "Spirited Away" (for a US release). Chris Meadows wrote, "Do we even know they intend to bring it over? Disney might just want the rights to keep it out of competition with their own films, given that they haven't ever made any noises about it before--they may just want to be a dog in the manger."
Marc Hairston replied, "I have never understood the "paranoid" ^_^ thinking from so many anime fans that Disney somehow wants to "hide" Miyazaki's films from a US audience. Disney (and Dreamworks) will make their decision on the basis of their own analysis about whether they can make a profit on bringing it to a US audience. . . If Disney decides that "Spirited Away" is too risky (and given Mononoke's track record here, they have every right to be wary), then it would make sense to let Dreamworks take the risk. It then becomes a no-lose situation for Disney. If it doesn't do well, then Disney made their profit on the Japanese box office (remember Disney invested about 10% in the production, so they've already made back their investment) and didn't lose any money in the US market. If it does okay, or even becomes a hit, then Disney has several other Miyazaki films ready to go to home video release with big yellow letters on the cover saying "From the maker of 'Spririted Away'!""
Chris wrote back, "Well, it just seems suspicious to me that after months of showing no evident interest in it, now Disney is all of a sudden "competing" for it. After all, I thought they had the rights sewn up, and that Dreamworks only even had a shot if they _didn't_ want it. What's going on here?"
Marc answered, "A bidding war. Disney has right of first refusal, but the *price* of getting the US rights would still be negociated. If no one else is interested then Disney has the upper hand in setting the price. If there is another company interested, then Tokuma can use that as leverage. Of course, they have to be careful that they don't price it so high that both Disney and Dreamworks walk away."
In an incredibly titled thread, Daniel Lam wrote, "IF Dreamworks DOES bring "Spitied Away" out, hopefully, at least they will give it a better treatment than Disney would!"
I asked for some examples, and Robin Casady replied (Daniel mysteriously disappeared from the thread at this point), "I'm not sure I'd characterize Dreamworks as "open minded" but they have been more successful than Disney with off-beat animated films. So, they may be more adept at marketing Sen than Disney.
Disney has been suffering from a number of missteps lately and the corporate atmosphere is probably not amenable to risk-taking. Dreamworks has had a number of recent successes, and may be more willing to be adventuresome.
David Mankins wrote, "A Dreamworks animated film that makes a profit is a success. A Disney animated film that fails to make more than $100,000,000 is a "flop".
Had _Atlantis_ been a Dreamworks film, the buzz would be about how there's an emerging market in animated films fitted for older viewers.
However, since it was a Disney film and only made about $84 million, we hear about how "there's no money in Animated features geared
toward more mature viewers".
After this point, the thread turned to various Urban Legends about Disney.
Bruce mused, "I recently watched Whispers of the Heart again, and I have to say that film reeks of nostalgia even more than Kiki's Delivery Service. The Theme song (John Denver's Country Road, which Shizuku also translates into Japanese for her friend) calls to the viewer 'Country road, take me home' and this theme runs throughout the entire movie. I also have seen the English subtitled 'Sen'. . . I felt as if the movie was trying to overwhelm with me nostalgia. Also the whole film seemed to be a patchwork of Miyazaki's films, almost to the point where I was getting slightly disappointed. Taken by itself though it is a good film, but probably one that I won't watch for another couple of years or if I force it upon someone else."
Chris Kuan replied, "if one is reasonably exposed to movies, you'll be able to recall similar scenes used for "effect" (emotional effect, usually) as a kind of cinematic shorthand. . . Perhaps the overwhelmingness (?!) of the effect was due primarily to your explicit recognition of these elements. Especially as you also say that you often felt it was a pastiche of other Miyazaki works, it would follow that you might be constantly comparing and referring _Sen_ to those works. . .
reviews are often critical of a director's (or screenwriter's) attempt to "manipulate our emotions", or some such phrase. On the other hand, a form of high praise is that a film "makes us think" - as if manipulating our intellect was somehow not an equal sin.
Robin Casady remarked, "We like emotional works if we don't recognize the mechanism used to evoke the emotions."
Andrew Osmond wrote, "I suppose you could focus on the 'I want to go home' line and argue Whisper is mourning the end of childhood, but I think this runs against the entire tone of the film, which is _celebrating_ Shiziku's growth - difficult though it may be at times - into a new person. I don't think the film is especially nostalgic, and I think the theme may be relevant to many adult people - it isn't only teenagers who need to accept change and growth. But doubtless you'll say I'm in denial about my feelings on this point."
Bruce wrote back, "Yes, in a way I do think it is mourning childhood, not only childhood but the past. This is reflected through the guy who works/owns the gift store. He sits in his chair by the fireplace gazing into the fire, dreaming about lost love. He keeps the cat statue in the hope that 'one day' his lost lover will come to him and they will be re-united.
I appreciate that the film is about growth, but I think it is pretty laden with nostaligic devices. To have a film about 'growing up' without making the viewer feel that the person has lost a part of themselves (whether this is good or bad is debatable), would make the film rather shallow I feel, i.e. she has lost part of herself but has gained something more valuable.
Andrew closed the thread with, "I still don't see that it 'reeks of' nostalgia. Yes, Shiziku has a poignant speech about losing her childhood when she's at her lowest point, and yes, we see the old man dreaming of his past. I still think the nostalgia is a fairly minor theme, though, and that the real emphasis is on the positive side of 'growing up.'"
Marc Gregory posted a link to a New York Times article about anime. He commented, "On the whole a well balanced piece with no mention of Urotsukidoji or the dreaded *tentacles*. It focuses more on history and stylistic forms and posits the theory that anime is the next wave in Japanese film."
Andrew Osmond disagreed with several points in the article. Quotes from the article are in green, Andrew's comments are in brown.
'[Anime] The term itself - a Japanese adaptation of the English "animation"...'
Actually, I believe it comes from the French.
'... suggests the roots of the form, in a blending of the Japanese pictorial tradition represented by silk painting and woodblock prints with American-style character design and genre stories.'
Crude and American-chauvinist simplification, as if the US was the only nation producing 'genre stories.'
'Even a film like Mr. Miyazaki's "Princess Mononoke," with its clear aspirations to Disneyesque detail and grandeur, animates its characters with only slightly more grace and fluidity than a low-budget television series like "Angel Tail."'
I'd put this in the same category as the 'falling literacy' claim in the previous article. Yes, 'grace' and 'fluidity' are subjective terms, but to suggest, as the writer does, that there's no more skill, finesse and artistry in Mononoke's animation than in a bog-standard TV toon is grossly misleading, insulting and cretinous. It's a shameful slur; contrived defences notwithstanding, it should be recognised and condemned as such.
Andrew pointed out a few more instances, but you get the idea. David Mankins replied, "I thought one of the most interesting comments in that article was:
Where Western animators struggle to create a convincing illusion of life, Japanese animators are more interested in capturing single expressive gestures, or in evoking a particular mood through the careful use of color.
I must say I have a hard time deciding whether this is true or not (indeed, I'm not even sure what it means), but I think I'll keep it in mind as I watch more anime and more product of the Western animators' struggle."
David also defended some of the points that Andrew disliked, "Could it actually be "genre stories and American-style character design"? If so, I think Schodt makes a similar argument in one of his books --- that what we consider to be (and others ridicule as) stereotypical character designs in anime are derived from Tezuka, who in turn was inspired by the character designs of 1930s film shorts?. . . *All* generalizations are crude. This one isn't so bad. Interestingly, I'd say most of the examples cited in the article --- _Perfect Blue_, _Ghost in the Shell_, _Cowboy Bebop_, _Akira_, go well beyond the big-eyes/small-mouth Tezuka look."
David did agreed with Andrew's last point, "this isn't the first time we've seen this criticism. I don't understand how someone can write such a thing, and I think anyone who makes this claim should contemplate Janet Maslin's remark that Ashitaka could teach a good many young American actors how to act.
Frankly, I think Miyazaki's character animation may actually be too subtle for many American critics.
Andrew replied (to David's pull-quote), "I agree, that's one of the less risible arguments, though I don't think I buy it. Use of colour... well, it's important in a film like Nausicaa, but also hugely significant in Snow White. Not sure there's much difference. The 'expressive gesture' argument is one that perhaps applies to Ghibli films, but I'm not sure I'd extend it to anime in general. I think the picture composition, character designs and detailed backdrops - not to mention non-visual aspects like music and voices - are often more important."
Then about the "generalizations", "I just think it's misleading, if only by omission. For example, it ignores how French comic-strip styles later influenced artists like Otomo and Miyazaki. . . probably most manga and anime today looks substantially different from its Astro Boy roots. Yes, there are production-line designs and the style is probably less varied than the US, but the piece should have acknowledged the evolution there has been."
Ilan Nguyen added, "If you think about it from a pronounciation point of view, the Japanese word in katakana is "animeeshon", which should clearly enough make the relation with the English work rather to the French one."
Emru Townsend commented, "I rather thought the article was quite positive. Kehr's comments on the technical aspects of anime aren't far off the mark, but his assessment of the medium (I'm glad he states up front that it's not a genre) is that it compares favorably with the best Japanese film of the 1950s and 1960s. . . Kehr is saying what many of us on the list have said: that Disneyesque mimicry of live-action is not necessary to convey power and beauty in animation."
Joe Curzon spotted a review comparing the R2 and R3 (Hong Kong) versions of "My Neighbor Totoro". Susan Napier responded to the huge threads that sprung up from a single paragraph of her book (Anime: From Akira to Princess Mononoke). Justin Leach found an article on the SoftImage site about the CGI use in "Spirited Away". Marc Hairston posted the reading list to a class he's helping out with at UT-Dallas.
On time, and out of sight.